Episode 0035: What is Art?
In this episode of podcast, we are joined in the Lair by Madame Overlord Johnson, who did not bring cookies. What did she bring? Opinions and class. Turns out we were already full up on the former, but sadly lacking in the latter.
Chief Medical Officer’s Report
It is entirely possible (probable, even), that the Bad Doctor has been ill-informed as to the purpose and, indeed, the very nature of our speculum farm in New Zealand.
Are we entering one or more of our shetland-bonobo hybrids in The Chagrin Valley Hunter Jumper Classic Horse Show? Well, it depends upon how well they jump, or perhaps hunt.
Finally, our Minister of Crackpot Schemes and Unfortunate Synergies may have—perhaps inadvertently—created a form of…oh, let’s call it Genetic Art.
Discussion: What is Art?
Well, that’s a fine question, isn’t it? Probably something transcendent and revelatory. Or not.
- Once again, we’re chatting about “Video games can never be art,” an article written by movie critic Roger Ebert. Because there’s no horse dead enough that we’re not willing to give it another whack.
- Chris thinks that The Void might well be art. It moved him.
- Amazing Fantasy #17? Geek reference fail. Spider-Man was introduced in Amazing Fantasy #15, Johnson.
- Myst, Riven and A Mind Forever Voyaging may well have been art. Probably not Batman: Arkham Asylum, though; it’s not boring enough.
- Some elements of Homeworld, Assassin’s Creed and The Misadventures of P.B. Winterbottom may be art (or even Art), but when all elements (visuals, audio, gameplay, etc.) are combined, the games fall short.
- How about those graphic novels? Watchmen, Planetary and Transmetropolitan are all cited as examples.
- Fan-fiction? Are we stirring that pot, too?
- crit·i·jism (Pronunciation: \ˈkri-tə-ˌji-zəm\) noun. 1. The reeking ejaculate spewed by critics.
- The Tangent Train chugs right along and we wind up talking about the maturity of geeks, Star Wars (there’s a shocker) and horror films (Overlord Miller doesn’t like the gore) until someone finally puts the show out of its misery.
Lairkeeping
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Podcast: Play in new window | Download (Duration: 1:07:02 — 61.4MB)
Episode 0048: The Great Old Pumpkin
I was only 12 minutes into the show when I had to grab a notepad and start noting down my thoughts. I like a lot of what was being said and I really enjoyed the dynamic of having Madam Overlord Johnson in this show.
A creation can have art as a part of the whole without making the whole project a piece of art. You touched on this idea when discussing computer game how elements of some computer games, music, visuals, etc., are works of art while the game itself is not. This same idea can hold true for things like traditional role playing games. The use of artwork in a book contributes to the game as a whole. Perhaps there could be an artistic vision represented by the designer in terms of the setting or theme which helped drive the creation of the game. This does not necessarily lead to the game being art. However it can contribute to a group of people using those elements to create a story experience that some people might consider to be a form of art, if you go along with the idea that storytelling can be art.
You all touched on the idea of validation and acceptance as being part of people’s feelings and reactions to discussions about what is and isn’t art. There’s a definite psychological aspect involved in here. Acceptance, and thereby validation, is one of the ways we create and maintain our sense of self identity. People look to groups of other people to help them find their sense of self. Common interests draw people together and help them define who they are to themselves and to other groups of people.
If a piece of work has the label “art” attached it can carry more “weight” when it is used as a form of validation among people who see it as part of their groups identity.
To reply to Madam Overlord’s question “How does that take away from your personhood…?” I will refer back to my comments on self identity. If a comment calls into question the validity of some items identifying characteristics, if it challenges or threatens to tear down the meaning some people have ascribed to it that comment could be seen as an attack on the people’s sense of self identity.
One definition of geek I like is “a person who is very passionate about a particular activity or topic”. It’s broad and can be generalized across a large number of people. When you have a group of people who feel strongly about something they are likely going to be easy to offend if their views are questioned. There’s a level of maturity that will determine how people respond in situations like these. We’ve also seen how the relative anonymity of the internet can heighten the degree with which people respond when they feel strongly about a topic.
I think in the end whether or not something is a work of art is going to be very subjective; Background, interests, education and maturity will all play into this. What is more important though? Whether something is considered art by others or if each of us appreciates the art we see in the world and try to share it with others.
Be well.
Ps- Chris, the +3 Sword of Awesome goes above your mantel, or in your golf bag (at least that’s where I keep mine).
I don’t have time to write a very long post, but I really quick wanted to jot off a note. It seems that what you’re saying is that video games are too complex to be Art. If – in essence – they had stopped at the music, or the character models, or the story, then the studio would have created “Art” but because they continued their work to create a game that was fun, they strayed from the world of Art into … something else.
Personally, I think that people are too hung up on the question. Art doesn’t have to mean Good, and Good doesn’t have to mean Art. Mapplethorpe’s stuff is Art. Bioware’s isn’t. But you know what I’m going to be doing this weekend?
You sickos. I’m going to be playing video games. Sheesh.
[...] The latest episode of The Secret Lair is up, in which Overlords Johnson and Miller discuss the recently-exacerbated philosophical conundrum of what, exactly, is art? Let’s just say that the extensive discussion goes into some… interesting… places. [...]
[...] Ebert’s recent article claiming that games can never be art has spawned conversation and argument all over the interwebs of late. While listening to a recent episode of [...]
The definition of art is a social construct. Art can be a great many things and different to many people.
I’ve had the (occasional mis-)fortune to live close to one of the largest art fairs in the country (http://www.artfair.org/, if you’re curious). One of my longstanding conversations with other area residents goes something like this:
“Is that art, craft or recycling?”
The answer varies for each piece of work and each person viewing it.
Can a computer game be art? That all depends on you and how you choose to define it. Roger Ebert probably used a very different definition of art in his comments than many of those who responded.
I think if we re-interpret Duke Ellington (“If it sounds good, it IS good.”) we could make a case for a great many things to be art that others would disagree with.
If we want to have a reasoned conversation on the subject we’d have to define what we mean by art before we begin talking.
Be well.